Classical Music: A question for readers

Friday, August 17, 2007

A question for readers

One of the editors at the paper asked me yesterday:

How important is it that Cincinnati maintain an excellent orchestra, anyway?

Here's the link to the story in Saturday's Enquirer.

Got answers?

23 Comments:

at 8/17/2007 07:46:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Symphony important.

but, not with the current cost structure.

$100,000,000 to remodel Music Hall is absolutely ridiculous!

The problem is NOT the building.

Doesn't the Manager make about $500,00 a year? and, the orchestra has to survive on donated money.

Something is seriously wrong here!

Clearly the cost structure is completely out of wack! From the stone ages.

Restructure, have the correct content of shows, have the correct quantity of shows, adjust the wages, and bring the orchestra into reality of cost structures.

I never understand paying people big money , and, they cannot cover the costs. Amazing...

at 8/17/2007 07:47:00 PM

Anonymous said...

It's very important that Cincinnati maintain an excellent orchestra because Cincinnati has a great musical tradition going back to the 19th. century. The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, the May Festival and the Cincinnati Reds are pillars of the City.

at 8/17/2007 10:28:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Very important. The CSO is one of the older orchestras in the country, and is a direct connection to the European cultural traditions of the original inhabitants of the city. A great symphony orchestra with a great conductor is a conservatory of our cultural heritage, and an assurance that the human values contained in great music will continue and prosper.

David Donovan
Music Director & Conductor
Lebanon Symphony Orchestra
Lebanon Symphony Chorus

at 8/17/2007 10:42:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I would like to address "Anonymous" in reference to salaries, remodeling of music hall and things being out of WHACK!

Have you seen the price tag on Paul Brown Stadium? Have you seen the price tag of professional athlete salaries? Have you seen the "accepted" behaviour from these atheles? Drunk Driving, Drugs, Animal Abuse, spousal abuse.... Can we talk about something seriously being wrong here???

I say bring the cost of high end losing sports teams into the reality of cost structures and throw those adjusted cost structures over to the arts for a change.

At least we can be proud of the instituion called the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra.......and I would like to know what Orchestra Manager makes 500,000 a year. That is nothing compared to the millions an NFL rookie makes!

at 8/17/2007 11:04:00 PM

Anonymous said...

How important is it that Cincinnati maintain an excellent symphony anyway? (Re: Financial results and attendance)

Although I don't attend many concerts at Music Hall, I personally believe that in recent years Cincinnati has had a mandate to reach out to those of any age who have never been there. Of course the trick is to figure out how to get people inside the performance hall in the first place but, no doubt, once they're in they will find out that they like it and will want to return.

In these days we musicians must bend over backward to make new people feel welcome, needed and, oh yes! entertained...all the while maintaining a certain standard of excellence. Of course we desperately need their money too. So...we keeping playing good music, old and new, because good music is always in style and we hope the new people will come back. Reaching out to kids in schools, to people in places of worship, and to workers in community businesses and volunteer organizations is a monumental task but everyone has a right to become enriched by the arts and we must not give up. If just a few people are helped by the gift of music offered to them, then we have to simply tighten our belts, adjust to the needs of the times and move forward. No local orchestra need feel as if it's trying to "compromise" its product either. There's nothing wrong with trying new ways of relating to the general public. Tradition makes a great foundation, but sometimes we need to add some new building blocks as we reach toward the sky.

The CSO already knows how to catch the public's eye and is good at arranging performances to meet the consumers' schedules, but seats are still empty and somebody still has to figure out how to pay the bills. We live in a techy era where the majority of younger people just aren't attending classical concerts.

As it turns out though, if they can be successfully invited to attend even one time, they may actually be enthralled to find that the conductor or performers will often talk to them informally from the stage! If a real person "up front" explains something about the music to them, tells them why not to talk or applaud between movements of a piano concerto, or asks them to turn off cell phones and unwrap their cough drops early, they will be on their way to learning concert manners.

In 2007 first-timers may be dressed up or down when they attend their first opera, but if they've been allowed to bring their own print music and invited to sing along during Handel's MESSIAH (for instance) then maybe they'll invite their friends and family to come with them next time because they'll feel as if they're participating in something spiritually enriching. All of these folks will eventually grow up. And who knows? Some or all of them may become our major patrons for the next few decades! That's good. Not just because of the money but because of the music. Go Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra!!!

Barbara Crouse
Harpist/Rehearsal Accompanist
Lebanon Symphony Orchestra & Chorus

at 8/17/2007 11:07:00 PM

Anonymous said...

What do great cities have? Great arts institutions. We have some of the fundamentals, most of which need continued or/and increased support($$$). Ballet,fine arts,the CSO,opera, theater, other dance and performance groups. What defines a great city and civilization...not its football or soccer team. Our arts organizations are not mausoleums of dead arts and artist. They should be the pulse and reflection of a great culture.

at 8/18/2007 09:50:00 AM

Anonymous said...

It is extremely important. These fees are reasonable and on par with the size and success of the orchestra. To attract and retain the best talent in the world (musicians and administration), we must pay these people what they are worth. You certainly wouldn't pay a CEO of a huge company $50,000 a year! When I travel around the world, people are familiar with Cincinnati because of the success of our fabulous orchestra. I am disturbed that an editor of the Enquirer would ask such a question.

at 8/18/2007 10:54:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Hi Janelle!

Read your article in today's Enquirer. It is, needless to say, sad news for an institustion such as the CSO.

One of your readers commented on "pop culture" and people understanding and apperciating "excellence" as part of the problems surrounding not only the CSO, but many arts organizations. We no longer strive for perfection, we no longer want to expand our minds and give arts a try because of an intimidation factor.

Another problem I see is the safety issue surrounding the Music Hall area combine that with ticket costs, parking and not connecting with the "potential" new audience.

Surburan areas are blooming with multiple arts opportunities for their communities. You have Blue Ash/ Montgmory Symphony, Lebanon Symphony, Hamilton-Fairfield, Middletown, Kentucky Symphony, ALL good quality organizations offering high quality programming, at a reasonable ticket cost, but most importantly--- in a safe environment---their community. Perhaps the emergence of these surburban symphony organizations could be considered a "pop culture" twist amongst the arts....

We are in the ipod generation....can you imagine everyone in a concert hall with ear pieces dangling from their ears listening to a Mahler's 8th? Perhaps that would wake people up! The sad thing is, they would be missing the "experience" of the depth, passion and intensity of many, many classic pieces of music literature.....

Carol Donovan
Managing Director
Lebanon Symphony Orchestra
breaking the classical sound barrier
Lebanon Symphony Chorus
www.musicinlebanon.com

at 8/18/2007 01:40:00 PM

Anonymous said...

When I hear about decline in symphony attendance, I can’t help but to think that with its overt and clandestine snobbery the CSO has made its bed, and must lie in it. I love classical music and support WGUC, but I have ceased going to CSO concerts altogether. I am frankly sick of the unstated message that classical music is at its heart “elitist” and unless you fit the image of what the symphony expects a concert-goer to look like, you aren’t 100% “part” of the clique. True there is officially no dress code at Music Hall but trust me, if you don’t conform, you are looked down on there, and this intimidation has to be a factor in why many Cincinnatians have never come, or have quit coming to concerts given by the CSO.

Before anyone rushes to contradict what I’ve written, please know that during college I worked for the CSO subscription office for nearly three years, do know most of the insiders at the organization, and have heard their comments in unguarded, private moments. Not only did I hear constant negative critiques about who it was who was coming to the symphony (“God, did you see what those people in the gallery were wearing? Couldn’t they have dressed up? Wonder where they were from?”) but on more than one occasion while present at Music Hall I have experienced the negative vibes myself.

The unvarnished truth, no matter how much hard-core CSO members and backers may vociferously deny it, is that the CSO is unwelcoming of "just anyone" at concerts. At one time I was a frequent attendee at performances. But no longer.

Let me share one reason why that is. Once at a concert about five years ago I escorted a friend from Australia to a symphony concert and after the performance took a few moments to show this first-time visitor to Cincinnati the majesty of Music Hall. This was perhaps ten minutes after the (wonderful) performance and well within the time concert goers were milling about the foyer and other parts of the hall, but we were the last two left in the gallery, except a pair of ushers. I noticed the ushers were staring at us in a very unfriendly, impatient way as I detailed the history of the hall from our elevated perspective at house left. Finally one usher walked over and said, “OK, kids, time to get going.” Since both my friend and I were in our mid-twenties, the reference to “kids” was not only impolite but inappropriate. I think the fact that we were not wearing formal attire and were not the stereotypical symphony patron in the minds of the ushers made them feel justified in their condescension and rudeness. The incident left a bad taste in my mouth, and whatsmore, did not convey a good image of the CSO to an out of town guest.

Now consider similar incidents over the course of years, and consider how this might serve to alienate a great many would-be concert patrons.

I wish more people knew the greatness of classical music, and I wish those in power at our local symphony were more welcoming so that this might come to be.

at 8/18/2007 05:36:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I love the music and appreciate the high class musicians that we have in Cincy.
I just wish that the concerts were not viewed as only for high class, snobish people.
The marketing should try to corner the average, hard working, music apprecitating, middle class people of the greater tri-state area.
Get off the high horse and the crowds will begin to improve(in my humble, middle class opinion)

at 8/19/2007 12:03:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Can't resist a reply to CSO former office worker.
What do you do for hi-class quality entertainment now-watch TV?You are missing some wonderful hours of great music, played by talented musicians with Paavo Jarvi,some visiting spectacular conductors, and many young soloists who have been studying music since they were 6-8 yrs. old.
They are what we come to hear -all 22 concerts, yes we are afraid we will miss one great one.

Have you seen the UC/CCM and Miami U students stand in line for cheaper tix, and some get lucky and get free
handouts. They don't have time to change to their tuxedos and slinky gowns, they are lucky to have a change of clothes yet are welcomed into Music Hall.
We love to see them, never have heard about their clothes,often bring them down front to watch the musicians up close.
Marketing has never ever told the public how to dress, what to wear, but their ads are full of good bio info.

Just come on down and swell the crowd, there are many who could not live without this good music, join us, we won't
talk about you, we will just love to see you there and you will go home much happier with all those good melodies and memories in your head and heart.
eM-M

at 8/19/2007 12:11:00 AM

Anonymous said...

This is pretty funny. The sort of people who'd take the time to read a classical music blog are obviously going to tend to be in favor of symphonies and the like. Asking them whether the CSO is important is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And if you weed out all the responses from the Lebanon orchestra (who all made sure to put their full name in case anybody from CSO saw them, natch), you are left with three or four music geeks. Hardly a mandate from the masses.

The reason the Bengals get a stadium is, the people love the Bengals. The next time 65,000 people get in one building to listen to classical music, I'll start to worry about whether CSO survives or not. Until then, I and most of the rest of Cincinnati couldn't care less about it.

at 8/19/2007 07:27:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I believe the symphony is important to many Cincinnatians for various reasons. For me, the regular presentation of symphonic works by professionals is paramount. In addition, the presence of the CSO encourages the multitude of chamber concerts in our area as well as the endeavors of CCM.
I attend CSO concerts regularly and many, if not most, attendees choose to dress casually. It seems to be about the same split I see in church on Sunday mornings. I think most people at either gathering are unconcerned about what anyone else is wearing, but glad to be among others sharing a common passion. I know the volunteer concert-night staff at CSO love, respect and have great pride in Music Hall, the CSO and it's audience, but perhaps some need to be assured that dressing down for concerts is not the end of civilization.

at 8/19/2007 09:48:00 AM

Janelle Gelfand said...

To anonymous at 12:11 a.m. -- both the Bengals and the symphony are important to people in Cincinnati, and not always the same people. Thanks for staying up late worrying about it.

at 8/19/2007 12:37:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I don't know... Maybe live symphony music simply has a limited audience... Maybe there is just nothing that can be done...

I, too, find the lack of support frustrating, but just maybe it is what it is...

at 8/19/2007 03:52:00 PM

Dustin Dow said...

My fiancee and I are both 27 and love Cincinnati. I don’t know how long we’ll live here, but the arts in this city is a significant reason we are considering making Cincinnati our long-term home. I find it remarkable that a newspaper editor would even need to ask whether it’s important that Cincinnati maintain a world-class symphony. Without knowing the context of the conversation, I would hope it was merely to engage in discussion about the CSO. Is it important to maintain public schools such as Walnut Hills? A major research institution such as the University of Cincinnati? How about Findlay Market? The Freedom Center? Is that important? All of these, including the CSO and it’s world-class status, foster a sense of community that makes Cincinnati desirable for people of all ages. I wish attendance was better at CSO. But even people who don’t go still benefit from such an institution.

at 8/19/2007 04:27:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I have been listening to classical music for forty years, and I think I know quite a bit about it. To me the current symphony, and particularly its current music director, are completely superfluous to my life. I find Paavo Jarvi to be a flashy, technically brilliant but emotionally vapid conductor who knows the notes but not the score. I've heard four concerts by Jarvi covering a fairly wide range of classics, and to me he is just a machine, not a musician.

Of course, this is what a lot of people like. He jumps around and wiggles on the podium. Visual culture that we are, we mistake this for real passion and feeling. From a strictly listening perspective, however, I do not find anything interesting or valid in his work. We had a great music director in Michael Gielen. He was not flashy and his programs were sometimes dense, but he was a great musician. Most subscribers were glad to see him go, but I wasn't. Gielen is still making great, fascinating recordings. Jarvi turns out Flashy Classical Product. If that's what sells your tickets, so be it, but to me it's not music-making.

at 8/20/2007 01:56:00 AM

Anonymous said...

i haven't read all of the posts on this blog, so forgive me if i may be reiterating a point someone has already made...but my answer to the question at hand is a full-hearted loudly spoken YES.

As for the discussion of musician's pay/salary...here's the way I think of it: Musicians and atheletes are paid to entertain, yes?

However, both are in the form of live spectator performance. Atheletes - they get paid to do the best they can do to win. They're not necessarily going to play every game perfectly, right? They make errors; they make mistakes.

Musicians - they get paid to play music, to make art. what's the standard they're held to as far as accuracy of executing this performance art? pretty much 100%.

who gets paid more, atheletes or musicians? this, to me, is an interesting pay structure...i'm not necessarily saying atheletes should be paid less...i'm saying, why are we complaining about the salaries we pay orchestra musicians when comparitavely to other entertainment, we hold to a standard of a perfect performance.

goodnight...

at 8/20/2007 09:32:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Janelle,

Maybe you should ask your editor whether a high quality newspaper is really important to Cincinnati. After all, there are plenty of (free) TV news shows detailing the day's local events, and I can read the New York Times online.

Why do we need parks? Why do we need excellent schools? Why do we need great restaurants? What about interesting architecture? For that matter, why do we need two major league sports teams? I mean, the Reds stink! At least CSO is a phenomenal orchestra.

The point is - great civic institutions make for a great community. If people wanted mediocre, we'd all eat at McDonalds and live in drab, concrete buildings like the downtown jail.

Silly question, if you ask me.

at 8/20/2007 11:37:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Your recent articles about the Cincinnati Symphony and its attendance problems have been informative, and showed a variety of reasons for the decline. I don't know about other people, but for my wife and me the real issue is the significant rise in the price of tickets. We had been purchasing the "Classic Choice" six-ticket package for some years, starting back in the late 1990's, and it cost us something in the $80 range. It now costs $195 plus $9.95 for "processing." I don’t know where you get that figure of a recent 25% price increase; the prices have been rising steadily every year, and so has the cost of parking in the city-owned garage across Central Parkway, which used to be $3 and now is $5 (or has it gone up again?). Frankly, it's getting beyond what we can afford.

The quality of the Symphony is never in question; it is superb.
The auditorium is outstanding and should not be screwed around with just to make people think it's not half empty -- that's ridiculous.
I have been a professional musician throughout my life, working as a church organist and choir director and, for the past 26 years, as a piano tuner/technician. Like most music professionals I do not make the big bucks (my children made more than I do in their first jobs out of college). The customer base for the Symphony is largely made up of middle-class music people like me, and the way I see it, the Symphony is pricing itself out of business.

The Symphony musicians are performing a part-time job and I pity the administration that has to negotiate contracts with so many ego-trippers. A violinist I know once referred to them as "that overpaid bunch of cry-babies."

Another violinist pointed out to me that the Symphony contract used to include a program of visits to local schools where the children could see them up close, playing in their school auditorium (I remember attending one of these). They don’t do this any more -- but they should go back to it if they want future customers.

My advice to the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is to forget about the silly changes and perks, and just lower ticket prices to something that ordinary people can afford.

Sincerely,
Paul Welch, Anderson Township

at 8/20/2007 10:24:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Ok, Paul. I'll go half way with you. We're a paid bunch of cry-babies. And to quote someone whom I greatly respect: "We're not a cheap product".

at 8/21/2007 03:13:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I had a few reactions to the CSO article – all of which may have been covered by your readers on this blog. But I'll throw them out anyway. Reactions in a nutshell:

SALARIES – it would be interesting to know how the comparisons were made to the other 12 orchestras that pay more – and who the orchestras are. If New York, LA, Chicago, etc. were on the list, salaries would be higher because of the cost of living if nothing else. Also, perhaps the players should take lower salaries for a year or two to see if that helped the bottom line. Not likely because of the union, but if it means keeping a job vs. having the orchestra go under, it's an option.

TICKET PRICES – No wonder people stopped coming if prices went up 25% 3 years ago. GOOD GRIEF. Are prices competitive with comparable ticket prices around the country assuming cost of living adjustments? Even if they are, it's pricey to go when folks can attend regional symphony concerts for much less. The quality may differ – but a lot of people don't know that. Why wouldn't the CSO lower prices DRAMATICALLY for 1/3 of the concerts on a one-year trial basis, advertise the heck out them and see what happens. The increased number of people attending might offset any loss in revenue. It couldn't be worse than having a hall that's 2/3rds empty. Plus, that's got to be demoralizing for 'the band'. Maybe the CSO should shelve any thoughts of renovating Music Hall and use those designated funds to subsidize lower ticket prices for awhile.

POPS – Interesting that attendance was up. Sounds like people like fun events vs. perceived stuffy ones. In an era where even P&G has a casual Friday dress code, the symphony orchestras have to find a way to appeal to the masses. There just aren't enough snooty people left to support them.

PRIVATE DONORS – How long can a few people continue to support the CSO if there are not significant changes?

at 8/23/2007 11:36:00 AM

Janelle Gelfand said...

Ray, interesting point regarding salaries. Here's the list of orchestras who pay their players more than the CSO: Metropolitan Opera Orchestra (NY); Boston Symphony, LA Philharmonic, Philadelphia, San Francisco, New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, Cleveland Orchestra, National Symphony (Wash. DC); Pittsburgh, Detroit and Minnesota. Those immediately below the CSO are Dallas, St. Louis, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Houston and Baltimore.

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Friday, August 17, 2007

A question for readers

23 Comments: