Classical Music: Declining symphony audiences, revisited

Tuesday, October 09, 2007

Declining symphony audiences, revisited

Continuing the marketing discussion, I was leafing through a summer Symphony magazine and saw an article about the Knight report, "The Search for Shining Eyes," and thought a few points might be worth noting again. This was the 10-year, $13 million report aimed at tackling a few of the "systemic problems facing American orchestras."

For the article, the American Symphony Orchestra League assembled a round table of symphony execs and an orchestra musician to reflect. There were some telling comments, such as from John Forsyte, president of the Pacific Symphony, who wondered "what provoked the initial spark... Was it really a concern for diminishing audiences? or was it a concern for the budget deficit challenges facing orchestras...?"

Three findings of the report:

1. Free programming and outreach do not turn people into ticket buyers.
2. Audience education efforts, designed to serve novices, are mainly used by those who are already involved with the orchestra.
3. Orchestras need to do more research on people who do NOT attend their concerts.

Do you agree with these?

What should orchestras be doing NOW to increase their audiences?

Photo: Peter Frampton narrating "Peter and the Wolf" last March with the Kentucky Symphony at Kenton County Library

32 Comments:

at 10/09/2007 02:06:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Very true--free tickets do not make for future buyers, but they do spread the word.The best is to encourage families, by a single family price, or going into schools and sending info to children for their parents to hear they may be interested in going to a first-time concert.
They are the future, the young people before they get snagged on ulterior music.
Those who study piano are the prime subjects for filling the seats in front and center to watch the pianist, and the same with violins.
We Need them......eM-M

at 10/09/2007 08:16:00 PM

Anonymous said...

The Madison Symphony gave the public choices to pick the concert program to be performed. Hope you got my article about the choices and which program received the most votes

at 10/09/2007 09:38:00 PM

Anonymous said...

A little like telling a painter what color to use.

at 10/09/2007 09:51:00 PM

Anonymous said...

As a social scientist (and former classical musician), I guess my opinion on the matter is moot. If you want to hear that, read my posting in the discussion on marketing. What bothers me is I am not sure where these so-called findings are coming from.

1. Free programming and outreach do not turn people into ticket buyers.

- Where does this come from? Surveys of inner city folks? Is this quantitatively based? If so, what is the qualitative date? In other words, just because someone who received or benefited from free tickets says "I don't attend" does not mean jack squat. Why? Ask yourself about the nature of the orchestra experience and that tells you alot about who is included and excluded...who is made to feel welcome and unwelcome...but we won't or can't know that until we dig a little deeper. If they hired me, I could get the job done...;-)

2. Audience education efforts, designed to serve novices, are mainly used by those who are already involved with the orchestra.

- What does this mean? Can anyone explain?

3. Orchestras need to do more research on people who do NOT attend their concerts.

- See #1

at 10/10/2007 09:00:00 AM

Janelle Gelfand said...

First of all, I don't agree with all the data in this report, and it may not entirely apply to our community. That said, it was a 10-year, $13 million study in 15 communities. Please click on the link to scan the full report. The executive summary explains the how/why, and Part 7 summarizes the "lessons learned."

I agree with eM-M that free tickets are useful and even valuable as an introduction or even (and maybe especially) to students, piano teachers, band and orchestra teachers, whatever. But the report points out that free tickets given randomly -- and here's the important part -- with no followup -- don't make any impact.

Nathan, for point 2, the report says: "Over and over again, Magic of Music orchestras (the name of the study) chose to abandon programs designed to attract new audiences because it was the subscribers who took advantage of them." What's the lesson? Maybe everybody needs them. Preconcert lectures are one thing, but up in Dayton, Neal Gittleman does a great job with a lecture-concert series that, for instance, might explain Beethoven's Fifth.

Point 3: " ... orchestras do very little research on nonattenders. Knight Foundation's consumer study was groundbreaking precisely because it surveyed people who did not attend orchestra concerts. The research revealed many surprises and dispelled many myths."

I would say the CSO's concert last night at Lakota Schools to benefit band programs was a two-way win for the orchestra. First, it put the orchestra in the burbs, where all those non-attendees live. Secondly, it was a generous thing to do for the community. It's one thing to be "world class" -- but isn't being generous and approachable even more valuable to ones community, and might also help build audience?

at 10/10/2007 10:05:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I think we ignore this study at our own risk. The problem is that those of us in the industry don't want to believe it. I am guilty of it as well, but is it fair to cherry pick the info we "agree" with and discard the rest. It is difficult to accept that most of the good or bad gimmicks we have been using simply don't work. Managers don't want to depart from the course because they rarely have a real alternative. Players don't accept it because we can't believe that quality alone doesn't speak for itself.
That being said I still believe that quality matters. I think most orchestras would do well to emulate a Cleveland/LA hybrid and concentrate on honest/hip marketing of that. It will be a long haul for most of us but it sure beats the grab bag of nonsense we have been using for years. Beyond that I have no answers.
The truth is we have failed to attract new audiences never mind retain them. In my orchestra even the annual free concert is half of what it once was. I think the problem is deeper than any cosmetic fix and that is what I think the Knight report suggests. Of course with no real answers.

at 10/10/2007 04:51:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Be creative, generous and supportive of school music programs in a big, big way. Take over where the school system has let the students and community down.

at 10/11/2007 11:30:00 AM

Janelle Gelfand said...

Tom Brinkman of Mount Lookout called yesterday and said he attends the symphony, ballet and opera (he enjoyed the ballet's New Works). But he says his friends tell him that Music Hall is uncomfortable, because the seats are too small and there's not enough leg room. They just get the CD or DVD and play it on their home entertainment system, he says.
Tom is hoping that the Music Hall renovations will provide larger seats with more leg room.

In programming, he looks for "something different. I like more modern, 20th century music," he says.

"People want the symphony to be successful. It's our city," he says.

at 10/11/2007 01:05:00 PM

Anonymous said...

What should the Symphony do now to improve attendance? One thing they could start doing is thinking ahead of the curve a bit. I'll give you an example.
The CSO just performed a very sucessful fund raising concert for the Lakota marching band that was sold out in their auditorium to a crowd of 800+ and by all accounts very well received. Now I'm sure the CSO marketing department thought that we have a golden opportunity here with a totaly engaged audience who would be leaving the auditorium exhuberent to say the least for the benfit of the marching band and the symphonic music experience. They had pre-planned to have vouchers to pass out promoting a "If you liked us here you'll love us in Music Hall" theme. The voucher would be good for future concerts- buy one get one free, or any ticket for $8.00 the night of the performance, or...... plus present your ticket stub for a free drink and snack at intermission. They passed them out and will shortly start realizing the fruits of these retail level efforts. Oops I forgot this is just an idea. I think you get the picture. Give them (potential customers) a reason to try something different.
It's common sense things like this planning ahead in order to promote a response that they need to be doing whenever an opportunity presents itself.

Steve Deiters/Oakley

at 10/12/2007 08:53:00 AM

Anonymous said...

hey Steve, the orchestra uses many volunteers in many positions...What are you doing with your spare time? Perhaps your professional experience could be of use.

at 10/12/2007 01:58:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Although I have many classical CDs, nothing beats hearing it live. I was amazed the first time I heard "The Planets" played in Houston, Texas. And one time I sat 2 seats from the Canadian Brass tuba player who came into the audience to play a piece. Maybe we need more classical music in our schools to catch listeners earlier in life...CBD

at 10/13/2007 08:37:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I still stand by what I said in the previous discussion on marketing the orchestra. I also agree with Steve.

In my interactions with symphony musicians (and having played 'on the clock myself'), there's a way to meet broad audiences and generate interest at the same time without sacrificing quality or infringing on union rules, provided it's done in a way that's integrated, thoughtful, and reaches a wide audience.

1) Televised concerts narrated by local celebs. These should be consistent and appeal to young audiences. Hell, even if attendance doesn't pick up, the advertising dollars alone could work...and YES, depending on the type of programming, people would watch;

2) Giveaways on 55KRC and WLW...blanketing the airwaves with Paavo and the musicians.

3) The experience at Lakota could and should be replicated elsewhere. With Steve's suggestion added in.

I need to read the research report, but again, I think some caution needs to be used in interpreting the results...I will look at it over the weekend and provide some thoughts from the other hat I wear.

at 10/14/2007 04:32:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Tom Brinkman, you gave yourself up in admitting you don't fit well into Music Hall seats... Might I suggest Atkins?? LOL....

Please, no more enlarging of things to suit our ever more bulbous citizens. Seriously.

This is not a good way to go.
And, quite a depressing trend....

at 10/14/2007 04:55:00 PM

Anonymous said...

It's the lack of legroom that has been the issue for me and many guests--and I'm not tall.

at 10/14/2007 08:15:00 PM

Janelle Gelfand said...

Hey, I have young male relatives who don't like sitting with their knees in their chest, too, and they are far from obese. Recently, I visited the new Carnival Center in Miami for a concert, and I was amazed at how spacious the seating was. People could walk in front of you without having you stand up to let them by. All they lacked were cupholders...However, acoustically I think that hall is still a work in progress.

at 10/15/2007 08:35:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I hope ours will be a work in progress some day also.

at 10/15/2007 05:56:00 PM

Anonymous said...

You have a great point about legroom. Sorry, I hadn't thought in that vein...

Yes, the legroom is horrendous.

at 10/15/2007 08:20:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Seating in Music Hall is by far spacious and one need not be obese in the least to feel the squeeze if you are in the middle of a row in the Gallery, or even the Balcony for that matter. If you are over 5"9 you are eating your knees.
As far as vouchers and free tickets...you can discount tickets till the cows come home but the bottom line is the product. If what is on stage is something people connect to you sell tickets....if not...it's like pulling teeth. On average a discounted offer can expect to see less than a 1% return in sales.

at 10/16/2007 12:39:00 AM

Anonymous said...

To answer the last report that the product must be good to bring people to CSO and Music Hall, there were rousing roars from balcony & gallery the last 2 Saturday concerts. So they must have heard about the fabulous cellist and breathtaking violinist who were on stage. The answer is to have everyone who attended the last two weekend concerts jsut bring ONE more person along, that would overflow the Hall.
WE loved the music, Mahler was spectacular,and we enjoyed being there, no TV or CD could do that.
Come on down, relax, hear it in the flesh.
eM=M

at 10/19/2007 08:03:00 AM

Anonymous said...

This is an add on to the individual that suggested ticket vouchers at the Lakota concert...great idea, but instead of a voucher have an announcer come out at the top of the concert and say "I have a cell phone announcement. Everyone please TAKE OUT your cell phone and turn them on (at this point people are saying ‘what is this guy talking about’). I am serious everyone take them out who would like to receive a free ticket to a CSO concert at Music Hall. To receive a free ticket just text message 'FREE TIX' to this number XXX-XXXX and we will send you a text message back with a free coupon good for any concert downtown." This technology is super cheap and you now have collected a couple hundred cell phone numbers and names that you can send reminder coupons to in the future.

at 10/20/2007 09:36:00 AM

Anonymous said...

See what I mean about "out of the box" thinking. You never know what creative ideas may pop up and the cell phone one is an excellent one. It's ideas like this that can bring them in to the 21st century. Everyone keep your thinking caps on-specially CSO marketing/development staff.

Steve Deiters/Oakley

at 10/20/2007 11:32:00 AM

Anonymous said...

I hate to be the half empty view on this board, or maybe there is just a lack of marketing savvy peeps, who think giving away tickets will fill houses. It is not the answer.
You can give away free tickets, half price, buy on get one free offers till the cows come home...and you still only see a very small return of people that actually come to the event. Do organizations do this? Of course but it is not the marketing that makes a difference. Again, you have to put a MUST see product on the stage (not something that is well done, but something that has that "buzz" aka "can't miss it" factor. You can't create that by GIVING away tickets.

at 10/20/2007 01:19:00 PM

Anonymous said...

To: anonymous 11:32

You are absolutely right that giving tickets away or selling them at half price or whatever is not the ultimate solution. That being said you have to ask yourself what financial incentive can be considered in order to draw people-non-traditional concert goers-who are scared off by the "snob factor", high ticket prices (subject for another discussion), or the symphonic experience that is something totally foreign to them not to mention any other factors that come into play ? Since the symphony typically plays to houses that are-how do I phrase this diplomatically-are of such a size that they are smaller than they would like them to be and since the tickets are a decreasing percentage of their revenue stream you can leverage this for discounting in an effort in increase attendence. A seat sold with a $9.00 discounted price generates 100% more revenue than a full price ticket (ranging from $18.00 to $103.00) when the seat goes unsold.The big question mark is the discounted seat being used by someone who can be converted to be a regular customer? That is the entrepeneural risk and should be part of the promotional game plan. It's a tough thing to consider when you are dealing with a risk adverse organization/industry that we are discussing here, but somewhere all the variables start to point in certain directions and this is one of them.
You also make a good point about giving a reason for people to come to the symphony. This was the subject of an article in the Wall Street Journall earlier this summer by their classical music critic. His position was basically-another music festival for Bach, Dvorak, or fill in the blank-give me a reason to come what will make it different.You know give me some other reason besides "world class". It was quite interestng and provoked a lot of thought on my part and confirmed a lot of things that have been discussed on this blog. Just what is the symphonic music industry doing to encourage people to come who would not normally be there? The secret to growth is the pursuit of potential customers who are not now customers. That was probably the strongest point made in the Knight study that has been referenced on this blog repeatedly. While some of the data is old, some of the points are still relevant.
The future can be bright for the symphony, but they better start looking for some flashlights pretty soon if they don't do something.

Steve Deiters/Oakley

at 10/20/2007 04:07:00 PM

Anonymous said...

C'mon Steve, volunteer...

at 10/20/2007 04:26:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Volunteer? Good idea but with a CSO marketing and development staff of 21+ there is no shortage manpower or brain power on Elm Street. I think they already have people tripping over each other as it is. Maybe it's time unleash what they already have to maximize what they can provide internally. Nothing to loose/everything to gain.

SD

at 10/20/2007 08:31:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Steve,

Thank you for the response to my post, many great points.
There is a trend that has developed with the patron who comes to "expect" or hold out for the discounted ticket. In my opinion the CSO has way to many discounts. You are never going to convert a discount buyer to a full price buyer. You have cultivated that patron to come to expect that your product is not worth the full price ticket and if they just wait you will offer them a discount at some point. Why should they ever pay full price? I would rather see an area of the house with a major low ticket price (gallery t,u,l,m at a cost of $5.00-$10.00) than a zillion discounts. Cultivation of the patron happens when the connection is made with the product not the ticket price.

at 10/21/2007 12:23:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Steve, I'm pretty sure you're way off on those marketing/development numbers. Also, development is largely involved in gifting, grants, etc. Not pushing the product, if you will. You are bright and passionate.Why not find out first hand.

at 10/21/2007 08:30:00 PM

Anonymous said...

FYI- the average ticket price for the CSO generates less than 20% of what it costs to produce the product. MOST funding comes from the FAF as well as private and corporate donations.....

at 10/22/2007 08:22:00 AM

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 10/21-12:23

For the amount of staffing in the CSO development/marketing/public relations department just turn to the last page of the program any given week and total them up. There have been some staff increases and rarely staff decreases in thoses areas but the figure typically hovers aound 21+/-and has for years. In a business model where performance is measured by the product that is sold (in this case seats to performances sold) all of these catagories would fall under the responsibility of a "sales department" and that is why they should be grouped together in my mind for the purposes of seeing how much manpower is available to sell this product-symphonic performance.
For success in marketplace you need three things to satisfy the customers wants-quality, price, and delivery (in this case meaning when it is offered). One has to ask themselves how is the CSO fulfilling these? We know the first one-quality-is there. What about the other two? Is work needed on one, two, or all three catagories?

SD

at 10/22/2007 08:32:00 AM

Anonymous said...

See, you've illustrated both my points:1) you'd be a great volunteer/advocate, 2)there are fewer than 21 in the marketing department

at 10/22/2007 09:02:00 AM

Anonymous said...

There are not fewer than 21+/- in the development/marketing & sales/public relations department which I had stated previously. Check the CSO website-marketing & sales -13, development-7, and public relations-2. That totals up to 22. The bottom line is to get it in gear and fill the place up in my mind. It can be done no matter how many people keep going around and stating it is the biggest concert hall in the country and that is the problem.

SD

at 10/22/2007 10:58:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Now don't get me wrong, the CSO appears to have the squarest, lamest marketing people an organization could have. But when I read that staff list and talk to the folks I know there, your #'s overstate your case. They're marketing dept only has a few folks in involved directly marketing the group. Now, pick up the phone and help out.

Previous Posts

Tuesday, October 09, 2007

Declining symphony audiences, revisited

32 Comments: